I love seeing traditional rituals make their way into modern contexts. I thought it was wonderful, to hear that. I've never heard one before. It makes a better sound than most shofarim do (the bottom of this page has sound clips of the traditional shofar calls for the High Holy Days).
(And I just got a sudden yen for Minekura to show us some youkai cultural stuff!! Poor Gojyo ... and even Jien seems to have been deprived that way.)
The pu seems a lot more resonant and more like a brass instrument in tone than a shofar does. The shofar almost seems to have a blaaaat! character that harks back to its ovine origin! But the several pu together (does the word change for the plural?) do make me think of the big synagogue, when we'd have several shofarot blowing together - the airhorn quality that comes from the similar notes beating against each other!
Yeah, I'm not even sure what the youkai family structure usually is, but as you say, it's broken down for those two. I imagine that in the normal scheme of things, if a youkai mother was unable to care properly for her children, the tribe would care for both her and her offspring.
Yeah, in G&H's Burial Arc, the gang Banri's betrayed has both human and youkai members, and in Reload, there's that little youkai beggar kid that Gojyo feeds from the table, and later Hazel nearly talks him into giving up his life voluntarily. People migrating to the cities is one of the common factors in the breakdown of feudalism. Oh, and Yaone's family were apparently prosperous town-dwellers.
I wonder if they're all animal/supernatural critter youkai (we've seen centipede, scorpion, cattle, and of course, kappas), as opposed to plant or inanimate-object youkai. (I keep remembering Dakki's sister in Hoshin Engi, who was a stone biwa yokai. Dakki herself is a fox yokai, so I'm not sure why that girl is her sister .. .)
There are also those youkai children on display at the oasis village - the boy with the bird wings and the girl with the scales.
HE is so confusing that it would not at all surprise me if they'd turn out to be just sisters of the heart (not that I think Dakki actually has one,mind you ... ).
(I notice that I used shofarim for the plural before, which is wrong ... that's the most common masculine plural form, but it should really be shofarot, which is the most common female plural!)
Oops, being late as always it looks like someone already answered that question ;)
Personally, although I think it's great locals are happy for Obama, I've always been wary of this kind of Obama-obsession going on here. Sure, he was born here, but most people probably had never heard of him before he became candidate, since he was never actually involved in local politics. So why would his place of birth be a reason to vote for him? And Locals voted for him like crazy not only in the actual election, but when he was up against Clinton as well, both events had record voter turnouts (people in Hawaii are usually famously apathetic when it comes to politics).
I think Obama it great and would have voted for him myself, but it bothers me that so many people don't care about what's actually important, but use someone's place of birth as a reason to vote for him! So what if McCain would've been born in Hawaii? (Ok so Hawaii is usually a blue state, but I bet you he would've gotten a lot more votes and Obama somewhat less). The same happened on a smaller scale when a local girl was on American Idol... who cares if she could sing, everyone voted for her anyway!
So yeah, I'm glad Obama won, and I'm glad people are happy about it, and I realize obviously not all local people voted for him for this reason alone, but it still bothers me. Sorry for rambling on it.
Well, I could be wrong, but I think you're underestimating the Hawaiians. There could be plenty of other reasons that a very driven, East Coast-style politician like Hillary Clinton might not appeal to the folks in Hawaii.
And in their reactions, at least, I don't see anything more than joy that someone with whom they identify has made it to such a high position. To me it feels like a more pronounced version of the same joy I feel when I consider the fact that Neil Gaiman is so popular and making Hollywood films, when he's a Jewish fantasy geek like me. I didn't choose to read his books because of that fact, but I enjoy his fame more because of that fact.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I don't think there's anything wrong about enjoying Obama's win, but honestly I don't see why someone from Hawaii should be any more or less proud of it than anyone who's voted for him. I'm not saying local people are stupid... but I do think that a majority did not give nearly as much thought to this whole thing as smillaraaq for example did. Obama being born and having lived here for a couple of years is a good enough reason for many here to vote for him. And to me, that's simply thoughtless.
Like your example, you feel that joy connected to Gaiman because you have something important in common... but would you feel the same simply because he was born in the state you live in? In the same way, I understand if people identify with Obama for many reasons, be it that they too are part of a minority or whatever. But simply because he was born in the same state that they were?
I think partially my reasoning comes from growing up in a place were being proud of your nationality was something to be frowned upon, especially not in connection with politics. I've rarely identified with or rooted for anyone simply because they were German, just because that was discouraged in the environment I grew up in. And while I don't believe in that as an all-encompassing mindset anymore, I also think there is some truth to it. And people who only identify with someone because of nationality (and I'm including "being from Hawaii in this, because every state really has its own small nation in it) simply seem superficial to me. And I cannot believe that the majority of local people put much more thought into voting for him than that.
You may not agree, and it's really not possible to prove this point one way or the other, but that's what I've experienced here and therefore it's my opinion. I'm usually a very positive person and always prefer to believe in people's good intention... but I've simply seen to much of this superficiality and apathy to ignore it.
I didn't mean to say that voters in Hawaii are more superficial or uninformed than anywhere else, actually I believe that many voters in general, no matter where they're from, fit in that category. It's just that Hawaii is the only state I've lived in, so it's the only one I can make any kind of judgment on.
And I don't disagree with anything you've said in this or your other comment about how different Hawaii is, and for what reason. I simply think that a majority of people here does not in fact consider or even know the details of many of the things you have mentioned. You go to UH and try to ask a couple of people about the things you've been talking about, and I'd be surprised if they'd even know the details of their own political history, or could explain why Obama is so special. Do you think most people are even interested in having a big voice in national affairs? I think it's telling that many times it's hard to find people who even care about local affairs. I've seen much more of a "let the mainlanders do whatever they want as long as they leave us alone" mentality than a wish to "belong", and to be part of mainland affairs.
I completely understand why Obama's victory was so meaningful to you personally, or to those who, like you, have put a lot of thought into this. But those people simply do not represent the majority of people on this island I see and deal with every day.
I really didn't mean to take away from anyone's enjoyment of Obama's victory by saying this, and in fact I'm very happy myself that he won. But that doesn't change my feelings on this, and although it's good to see someone like you who has put a lot of thought into this, it doesn't convince me that this represents the majority of local people. If my opinions offended you I'm honestly sorry, but that's how I've experienced life on this island. I didn't mention this to try and convince anyone that my opinion is fact, but Cho asked, and I simply explained how I saw it.
Actually, actress/comedian Goldie Hawn (perhaps well before your time, but known nowadays as the mother of actress Kate Hudson) was from not only my state but also my county and attended the high school that my daughter does now - as did Olympic gymnast Dominique Dawes. And even though I have far less in common with either than I do with Gaiman, I do feel a little warm pride whenever I catch a reference to their roots.
Hobbit-san, I'm willing to accept that this phenomenon may not be as widespread as I had always assumed, but many people - perhaps moreso over here - do feel especially warmly toward someone from "their hometown." It's probably ingrained to some degree in how people are raised in the U.S., because the "melting pot" situation meant that the publicly funded local schools were always encouraging students to think of themselves as part of the town, the state, and the country.
So if there was a new professor in your major department who turned out to be from your area of Germany, it wouldn't spark any feelings of positive inclination from the start? You'd be completely logical and wait to see whether he or she was a good lecturer, or whetever?
Sure, if I'd come across a professor like that I'd probably feel a spark of nice familiarity. But would that be enough to pronounce him the best professor in the department? Probably not. Just like you would feel some pride if Goldie Hawn would win an Oscar, but you wouldn't nominate her for one simply because she was born in the same state as you.
It's not that I think people shouldn't be happy or feel pride in Obama's victory... I'm saying that those feelings shouldn't be the main reason for voting for him. You and smillaraaq are saying that that wasn't most people's main reason to begin with, and there we simply disagree.
And actually I grew up in a place that's very much multi-cultural, and from what I've seen the German school-system encourages the feeling of being a part of a whole even moreso than American ones. For example, in Germany students stay together in a group for all their classes, throughout their school life (those little "communities" of usually 20 students or so each only change between elementary and secondary schools). They go on class trips together, including to foreign countries, and form pretty close bonds. (and btw, pretty much all schools are public in Germany) But back when I was younger, the idea of being proud of nationality simply was not something that was considered a good thing (mostly because of the whole "Germans are evil for WWII" idea). The US is just completely different that way. Being patriotic and proud of being American (or from a certain state) is completely normal and considered positive. Personally, I feel that the best way is to stand somewhere between those two sides... American pride often doesn't sit well with me, but I don't believe in the German way anymore either (and things have changed there since I was young anyway).
So yeah, I admit that's part of my reasoning. Number one, I don't believe in being overly proud of your national or state affiliation. But that's just me, and it's not like I'll run around and scold people for offending my personal sensibilities ;) What I do disagree with if those feelings of pride or patriotism become the basis for decisions like who to vote for. And that's what I've been seeing here in Hawaii. There's a difference between feeling pride and joy for Obama being from Hawaii, or using those feelings as a reason to vote for him. I have no problem with the first one, but the second one I regard as shallow. Maybe I wasn't clear enough on that distinction.
I think part of the issue with the pride thing may have to do with whether it's played as "my hometown is great, so clearly yours isn't." Myself, I just feel enthusiasm for my birthplace (which actually is Washington DC), despite its flaws. It isn't that I feel that other places aren't as good, or even better - but this place suits me.
Well there's doubtlessly always going to be some folks who will vote for the local no matter what, I think that for some voters there's more thought to it than that. Don't forget, he wasn't just born there, he spent a lot of formative childhood and teen years of schooling there and graduated from Punahou -- that latter element gives him a LOT of personal connections with folks who can be fairly influential and draw on a serious web of connections to drum up support. (Sen. Inouye, who had been a Hillary supporter, stirred up a *lot* of pilikia when he made critical remarks back in the caucus days about Obama's Punahou attendance -- because he was one of the rare, lucky kids who got in there on scholarship, and busting on that really came across as totally uncalled-forsour grapes from a McKinley grad. Folks may bust on townies and Punahou grads for being haolefied, but damn near anybody who could get a chance at getting their kids in there for free would freakin' JUMP at the opportunity to get one of the best possible educations on the islands, and the social networking that comes with it.)
Also growing up hapa in a society as broadly multiethnic and multicultural as Hawai'i gives him a very, very different background to approaching issues of racial/religious/cultural conflict; all the other candidates were coming from a very very different world, not just because they're white, but because they grew up and were educated and worked all their lives in a world where whites were the obvious majority and racial issues tended to be limited to black-and-white, and fraught with tension.
There's often a sense that people on the mainland do not understand island issues and society very well at all -- remember Cokie Roberts sneering about GOING HOME TO VISIT GRANDMA as "an elitist destination"? So somebody who knows that there's a lot more to the islands than the luxury resorts most locals never see (unless they're hotel staff cleaning the rooms) has an awful lot of appeal. He seems to have very much internalized the best local attitudes of maintaining harmony and working together across ethnic lines -- and he still also seems to have a lot of the calm, laid back, no huhu island attitude in general -- whereas as Cho noted, Hillary is more of your classic Type A East Coast politico, and that kind of intense, driven attitude can be pretty oil-and-water to the land of shaka and bumbye.
Also, as far as directly addressing local issues -- both Hillary and Obama have been past supporters of the Akaka Bill, which alienates some of the most hard-core sovereignty activists but also draws support from a lot of other politically-minded Native Hawaiians. But I never really saw Hil (or any of the other candidates, from either party) get the message out as aggressively as the Obama campaign -- hell, I have never in my LIFE seen any candidate treating the indigenous voting bloc so seriously -- usually we get written off as just too small a population to be worth more than maybe a token stump speech on some big southwestern rez while the candidate's in transit from one "real" campaign destination to another. Showing respect like that goes a long way, especially when it's been lacking for so long.
I agree with what you've said about mainland people and how they often don't understand local issues, and I'm sure Obama has a much better grasp on these things. But still I honestly don't believe that a majority of people put as much thought into this as you obviously have.
Yes, the Native Hawaiian community has good reasons to support Obama, but how much does the rest of the local population really care about the Akaka Bill? Not to say that it's not important, but I really think people like you, who are well-informed, politically-minded and interested in these things are in the minority on this island. You may not agree with me on that, but that's just what I've experienced. A lot of people simply don't care or are very cynical on Native Hawaiian issues, and I cannot believe that over 70% of people here voted for Obama for that reason, or even for any other specific reason apart from the fact that he's a Democrat and he's from Hawaii.
I hate to come across as a cynical pessimist, but that's just my experience. Sure I could be wrong, and I don't deny that there are people out there who are not only smart but also care. But having to deal with people every day who are apathetic, careless, and think only of themselves does not make me very confident into the thought process that went into their voting.
Well, the thing you have to remember is that ever since statehood, Hawai'i politics (local and national) has been heavily, heavily Democrat-dominated -- in the 12 presidential elections the islands could vote in, there have only been two (Reagan in '84 and Nixon in '72) where Republicans carried the state. And a local connection isn't even necessary for a landslide -- LBJ in '64 swept the state with 78.76% of the vote, an even more overwhelming victory than Obama's 72%. Being local-born gave him a definite edge over Hillary and the other Democratic candidates for seeking the nomination, but once it came down to the actual national election, I'd have been *stunned* if the Democratic candidate, be it Hillary or anyone else without a direct local connection, still didn't manage to carry the state quite handily: Hawai'i is just that dyed-in-the-wool blue. "He's local" may have given him an edge with folks who were fence-sitting or needed a little extra push, but "he's a Democrat" would be pretty much enough to guarantee victory.
There's a whole lot of complicated historical context there that's very different from the usual mainland red/blue breakdown. A Republican president accepted the annexation of the islands, when his Democratic predecessor had opposed it; Republicans dominated the government of the islands in the immediate post-annexation period of martial law, and later the Presidential-appointed Territorial Governors were overwhelmingly Republican -- post-statehood, the current Lingle administration is a real historical fluke, she's the first Republican state governor since Quinn back in '59. The so-called "Democratic machine" may be a little creakier now than it once was, but it rose to such dominance in the first place as a counterbalance to the bad old days of the Big Five, when the state government was essentially an oligarchy of a handful of rich, white Republicans protecting their business interests. Historically, the Repubs were the party of the white businessmen who owned the sugar and pineapple plantations, the shipping conglomerates, and the other associated businesses, while the Democratic party developed its initial foothold amongst the plantation laborers, especially the numerous Japanese and Filipino workers, and then got a major historical boost from the post-WWII mobilization of Hawai'i-born Japanese veterans into politics. Those ethnic/party affiliations are breaking down somewhat, as more and more of the Democratic old guard of Inouye's generation has passed away and the state economy has changed so drastically, and generations of intermarriage have left the islands even more ethnically mixed, but it's still not dead -- looking at the 2002 gubernatorial votes, Lingle's strongest voting bloc was haole while Hirono's biggest bloc was Filipino and Japanese.
No pots & pans audible here in Spokane's semi-rural suburbia -- but lots of happy phone calls! My daughter made a cake. She & my son-in-law are drinking wine, in Seattle!
SQUEEEE! I have hope now for the first time in the past 8 years! I'm soooo proud of my country tonight!!!!
Me too! At work today, people are trying to collect newspapers with the historic headlines! Our librarians are having to keep close tabs on the shelf copies!
It was interesting, contrasting the more measured response at Shejidan with the euphoria here.
Sheji Associates are bending over backwards to be tactful, concilatory, & restrained as they understand there are so many points of view, and so many differnt cultures from around the world.
That said -- there is a LOT of private jubilation going on via PM & emails: Star, Kokipy, Resa, Xheralt & I all were Obama supporters & have contacted each other behind the scenes. No need rubbing it into Spence, & possibly others, who have have a very different point of view yet. Spence was gracious enough to congratulate us who supported Obama, and I appreciate that.
I can appreciate their tact ... I also noticed some months ago that although I love discussing CJC with the Sheji Associates, their politics are often way off from mine. A lot of them are well toward Libertarian, which is a political stance I can't really get behind. That's part of why I like LJ in many ways more than message boards ... we're closer here. I don't like to burden Shejidan with all the mundane little crud of day-to-day, and I feel shy there, still, in many ways. But this is sort of my home, which I enjoy sharing with friends, so it's very different.
I like Spence. I wouldn't expect him to be anything but gracious.
Mr Kis (who's away in Oxford) was awoken at 6am by fireworks. Okay, it's Bonfire Night today but not at 6am in the morning it's not. Those fireworks were let off by the US students. YAY!!!!
And of course, well-omened from the viewpoint of scaring away evil spirits.
This is how I know I am hardwired for story: when he said so let us summon a new spirit, I thought, well, that's you, then, isn't it? Daimon of change; we called you up and now we have to not blow it. (And not hate you because you are human and not Moshiach, either.) Then he finished the sentence of patriotism, of responsibility, but those are still the shrines my head builds around the words it hears.
Oh, yes - when heard that way, it does indeed beg for more story ... .
I hope that people understand how slow the wheels of government can grind, and don't expect miracles early on! And yes, democratic government is a continuous communal effort - people can't just expect to have him show up and fix everything, while they go back to sitting on their hands.
Bwa-ha-ha! And thanks to the Obama-Hawai'i connection, here's something else I never, ever expected to see...a New York Times article on plate lunch! In the dining section, no less, not travel or health (because really, a loco moco is nothing but a heart attack on a plate...) XD
We had plate lunches in Hawaii! We were driving counter-clockwise around the edge of Oahu and stopped for lunch at a place some of the guys from the base had recommended to the Mr. It was pretty good but too much food for someone who wasn't doing hard manual labor! I think we all had the kalua pork.
There was the more-or-less American version of that sort of place at "The Corner" at UVa - the University Cafeteria, a/k/a UniCaf. I once treated myself to supper there and requested the meatballs with rice. I received a large dinner plate heaped at least two inches deep in seasoned ride, with two golfball-sized meatballs nestled in the top. Clearly they were used to feeding members of the football team.
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branchandroot
no subject
Date: 2008-11-05 04:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-05 05:46 pm (UTC)It is totally amazing!
So how is it going today, Hobbit-san? Are the people happy for their local son, now headed for the White House?
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Date: 2008-11-05 07:29 pm (UTC)That's what it sounded like outside last night (minus the conch!), but ours quieted down after about 5 minutes!
no subject
Date: 2008-11-07 10:33 pm (UTC)I love seeing traditional rituals make their way into modern contexts. I thought it was wonderful, to hear that. I've never heard one before. It makes a better sound than most shofarim do (the bottom of this page has sound clips of the traditional shofar calls for the High Holy Days).
(And I just got a sudden yen for Minekura to show us some youkai cultural stuff!! Poor Gojyo ... and even Jien seems to have been deprived that way.)
no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 12:30 pm (UTC)The pu seems a lot more resonant and more like a brass instrument in tone than a shofar does. The shofar almost seems to have a blaaaat! character that harks back to its ovine origin! But the several pu together (does the word change for the plural?) do make me think of the big synagogue, when we'd have several shofarot blowing together - the airhorn quality that comes from the similar notes beating against each other!
Yeah, I'm not even sure what the youkai family structure usually is, but as you say, it's broken down for those two. I imagine that in the normal scheme of things, if a youkai mother was unable to care properly for her children, the tribe would care for both her and her offspring.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-13 12:25 pm (UTC)Yeah, in G&H's Burial Arc, the gang Banri's betrayed has both human and youkai members, and in Reload, there's that little youkai beggar kid that Gojyo feeds from the table, and later Hazel nearly talks him into giving up his life voluntarily. People migrating to the cities is one of the common factors in the breakdown of feudalism. Oh, and Yaone's family were apparently prosperous town-dwellers.
I wonder if they're all animal/supernatural critter youkai (we've seen centipede, scorpion, cattle, and of course, kappas), as opposed to plant or inanimate-object youkai. (I keep remembering Dakki's sister in Hoshin Engi, who was a stone biwa yokai. Dakki herself is a fox yokai, so I'm not sure why that girl is her sister .. .)
no subject
Date: 2008-11-17 02:45 am (UTC)There are also those youkai children on display at the oasis village - the boy with the bird wings and the girl with the scales.
HE is so confusing that it would not at all surprise me if they'd turn out to be just sisters of the heart (not that I think Dakki actually has one,mind you ... ).
no subject
Date: 2008-11-10 12:33 pm (UTC)(I notice that I used shofarim for the plural before, which is wrong ... that's the most common masculine plural form, but it should really be shofarot, which is the most common female plural!)
no subject
Date: 2008-11-09 04:04 am (UTC)Aww, that was so neat!
(kahu)
Date: 2008-11-09 03:58 am (UTC)Interesting!
no subject
Date: 2008-11-08 07:01 pm (UTC)Personally, although I think it's great locals are happy for Obama, I've always been wary of this kind of Obama-obsession going on here. Sure, he was born here, but most people probably had never heard of him before he became candidate, since he was never actually involved in local politics. So why would his place of birth be a reason to vote for him? And Locals voted for him like crazy not only in the actual election, but when he was up against Clinton as well, both events had record voter turnouts (people in Hawaii are usually famously apathetic when it comes to politics).
I think Obama it great and would have voted for him myself, but it bothers me that so many people don't care about what's actually important, but use someone's place of birth as a reason to vote for him! So what if McCain would've been born in Hawaii? (Ok so Hawaii is usually a blue state, but I bet you he would've gotten a lot more votes and Obama somewhat less). The same happened on a smaller scale when a local girl was on American Idol... who cares if she could sing, everyone voted for her anyway!
So yeah, I'm glad Obama won, and I'm glad people are happy about it, and I realize obviously not all local people voted for him for this reason alone, but it still bothers me. Sorry for rambling on it.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-09 04:09 am (UTC)Well, I could be wrong, but I think you're underestimating the Hawaiians. There could be plenty of other reasons that a very driven, East Coast-style politician like Hillary Clinton might not appeal to the folks in Hawaii.
And in their reactions, at least, I don't see anything more than joy that someone with whom they identify has made it to such a high position. To me it feels like a more pronounced version of the same joy I feel when I consider the fact that Neil Gaiman is so popular and making Hollywood films, when he's a Jewish fantasy geek like me. I didn't choose to read his books because of that fact, but I enjoy his fame more because of that fact.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-09 08:15 am (UTC)Like your example, you feel that joy connected to Gaiman because you have something important in common... but would you feel the same simply because he was born in the state you live in? In the same way, I understand if people identify with Obama for many reasons, be it that they too are part of a minority or whatever. But simply because he was born in the same state that they were?
I think partially my reasoning comes from growing up in a place were being proud of your nationality was something to be frowned upon, especially not in connection with politics. I've rarely identified with or rooted for anyone simply because they were German, just because that was discouraged in the environment I grew up in. And while I don't believe in that as an all-encompassing mindset anymore, I also think there is some truth to it. And people who only identify with someone because of nationality (and I'm including "being from Hawaii in this, because every state really has its own small nation in it) simply seem superficial to me. And I cannot believe that the majority of local people put much more thought into voting for him than that.
You may not agree, and it's really not possible to prove this point one way or the other, but that's what I've experienced here and therefore it's my opinion. I'm usually a very positive person and always prefer to believe in people's good intention... but I've simply seen to much of this superficiality and apathy to ignore it.
no subject
Date: 2008-11-09 10:06 am (UTC)And I don't disagree with anything you've said in this or your other comment about how different Hawaii is, and for what reason. I simply think that a majority of people here does not in fact consider or even know the details of many of the things you have mentioned. You go to UH and try to ask a couple of people about the things you've been talking about, and I'd be surprised if they'd even know the details of their own political history, or could explain why Obama is so special. Do you think most people are even interested in having a big voice in national affairs? I think it's telling that many times it's hard to find people who even care about local affairs. I've seen much more of a "let the mainlanders do whatever they want as long as they leave us alone" mentality than a wish to "belong", and to be part of mainland affairs.
I completely understand why Obama's victory was so meaningful to you personally, or to those who, like you, have put a lot of thought into this. But those people simply do not represent the majority of people on this island I see and deal with every day.
I really didn't mean to take away from anyone's enjoyment of Obama's victory by saying this, and in fact I'm very happy myself that he won. But that doesn't change my feelings on this, and although it's good to see someone like you who has put a lot of thought into this, it doesn't convince me that this represents the majority of local people. If my opinions offended you I'm honestly sorry, but that's how I've experienced life on this island. I didn't mention this to try and convince anyone that my opinion is fact, but Cho asked, and I simply explained how I saw it.
(local pride & Obama's win)
Date: 2008-11-10 07:58 pm (UTC)Actually, actress/comedian Goldie Hawn (perhaps well before your time, but known nowadays as the mother of actress Kate Hudson) was from not only my state but also my county and attended the high school that my daughter does now - as did Olympic gymnast Dominique Dawes. And even though I have far less in common with either than I do with Gaiman, I do feel a little warm pride whenever I catch a reference to their roots.
Hobbit-san, I'm willing to accept that this phenomenon may not be as widespread as I had always assumed, but many people - perhaps moreso over here - do feel especially warmly toward someone from "their hometown." It's probably ingrained to some degree in how people are raised in the U.S., because the "melting pot" situation meant that the publicly funded local schools were always encouraging students to think of themselves as part of the town, the state, and the country.
So if there was a new professor in your major department who turned out to be from your area of Germany, it wouldn't spark any feelings of positive inclination from the start? You'd be completely logical and wait to see whether he or she was a good lecturer, or whetever?
Re: (local pride & Obama's win)
Date: 2008-11-11 06:06 am (UTC)It's not that I think people shouldn't be happy or feel pride in Obama's victory... I'm saying that those feelings shouldn't be the main reason for voting for him. You and smillaraaq are saying that that wasn't most people's main reason to begin with, and there we simply disagree.
And actually I grew up in a place that's very much multi-cultural, and from what I've seen the German school-system encourages the feeling of being a part of a whole even moreso than American ones. For example, in Germany students stay together in a group for all their classes, throughout their school life (those little "communities" of usually 20 students or so each only change between elementary and secondary schools). They go on class trips together, including to foreign countries, and form pretty close bonds. (and btw, pretty much all schools are public in Germany) But back when I was younger, the idea of being proud of nationality simply was not something that was considered a good thing (mostly because of the whole "Germans are evil for WWII" idea). The US is just completely different that way. Being patriotic and proud of being American (or from a certain state) is completely normal and considered positive. Personally, I feel that the best way is to stand somewhere between those two sides... American pride often doesn't sit well with me, but I don't believe in the German way anymore either (and things have changed there since I was young anyway).
So yeah, I admit that's part of my reasoning. Number one, I don't believe in being overly proud of your national or state affiliation. But that's just me, and it's not like I'll run around and scold people for offending my personal sensibilities ;) What I do disagree with if those feelings of pride or patriotism become the basis for decisions like who to vote for. And that's what I've been seeing here in Hawaii. There's a difference between feeling pride and joy for Obama being from Hawaii, or using those feelings as a reason to vote for him. I have no problem with the first one, but the second one I regard as shallow. Maybe I wasn't clear enough on that distinction.
Re: (local pride & Obama's win)
Date: 2008-11-13 12:32 pm (UTC)Well, I can't argue with your last paragraph!
I think part of the issue with the pride thing may have to do with whether it's played as "my hometown is great, so clearly yours isn't." Myself, I just feel enthusiasm for my birthplace (which actually is Washington DC), despite its flaws. It isn't that I feel that other places aren't as good, or even better - but this place suits me.
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Date: 2008-11-09 06:37 am (UTC)Also growing up hapa in a society as broadly multiethnic and multicultural as Hawai'i gives him a very, very different background to approaching issues of racial/religious/cultural conflict; all the other candidates were coming from a very very different world, not just because they're white, but because they grew up and were educated and worked all their lives in a world where whites were the obvious majority and racial issues tended to be limited to black-and-white, and fraught with tension.
There's often a sense that people on the mainland do not understand island issues and society very well at all -- remember Cokie Roberts sneering about GOING HOME TO VISIT GRANDMA as "an elitist destination"? So somebody who knows that there's a lot more to the islands than the luxury resorts most locals never see (unless they're hotel staff cleaning the rooms) has an awful lot of appeal. He seems to have very much internalized the best local attitudes of maintaining harmony and working together across ethnic lines -- and he still also seems to have a lot of the calm, laid back, no huhu island attitude in general -- whereas as Cho noted, Hillary is more of your classic Type A East Coast politico, and that kind of intense, driven attitude can be pretty oil-and-water to the land of shaka and bumbye.
Also, as far as directly addressing local issues -- both Hillary and Obama have been past supporters of the Akaka Bill, which alienates some of the most hard-core sovereignty activists but also draws support from a lot of other politically-minded Native Hawaiians. But I never really saw Hil (or any of the other candidates, from either party) get the message out as aggressively as the Obama campaign -- hell, I have never in my LIFE seen any candidate treating the indigenous voting bloc so seriously -- usually we get written off as just too small a population to be worth more than maybe a token stump speech on some big southwestern rez while the candidate's in transit from one "real" campaign destination to another. Showing respect like that goes a long way, especially when it's been lacking for so long.
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Date: 2008-11-09 07:39 am (UTC)Yes, the Native Hawaiian community has good reasons to support Obama, but how much does the rest of the local population really care about the Akaka Bill? Not to say that it's not important, but I really think people like you, who are well-informed, politically-minded and interested in these things are in the minority on this island. You may not agree with me on that, but that's just what I've experienced. A lot of people simply don't care or are very cynical on Native Hawaiian issues, and I cannot believe that over 70% of people here voted for Obama for that reason, or even for any other specific reason apart from the fact that he's a Democrat and he's from Hawaii.
I hate to come across as a cynical pessimist, but that's just my experience. Sure I could be wrong, and I don't deny that there are people out there who are not only smart but also care. But having to deal with people every day who are apathetic, careless, and think only of themselves does not make me very confident into the thought process that went into their voting.
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Date: 2008-11-09 08:47 am (UTC)There's a whole lot of complicated historical context there that's very different from the usual mainland red/blue breakdown. A Republican president accepted the annexation of the islands, when his Democratic predecessor had opposed it; Republicans dominated the government of the islands in the immediate post-annexation period of martial law, and later the Presidential-appointed Territorial Governors were overwhelmingly Republican -- post-statehood, the current Lingle administration is a real historical fluke, she's the first Republican state governor since Quinn back in '59. The so-called "Democratic machine" may be a little creakier now than it once was, but it rose to such dominance in the first place as a counterbalance to the bad old days of the Big Five, when the state government was essentially an oligarchy of a handful of rich, white Republicans protecting their business interests. Historically, the Repubs were the party of the white businessmen who owned the sugar and pineapple plantations, the shipping conglomerates, and the other associated businesses, while the Democratic party developed its initial foothold amongst the plantation laborers, especially the numerous Japanese and Filipino workers, and then got a major historical boost from the post-WWII mobilization of Hawai'i-born Japanese veterans into politics. Those ethnic/party affiliations are breaking down somewhat, as more and more of the Democratic old guard of Inouye's generation has passed away and the state economy has changed so drastically, and generations of intermarriage have left the islands even more ethnically mixed, but it's still not dead -- looking at the 2002 gubernatorial votes, Lingle's strongest voting bloc was haole while Hirono's biggest bloc was Filipino and Japanese.
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Date: 2008-11-05 04:58 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-05 05:47 pm (UTC):-D
I'm deeply touched by a lot of the world reaction.
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Date: 2008-11-05 05:39 am (UTC)SQUEEEE! I have hope now for the first time in the past 8 years! I'm soooo proud of my country tonight!!!!
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Date: 2008-11-05 05:49 pm (UTC)Me too! At work today, people are trying to collect newspapers with the historic headlines! Our librarians are having to keep close tabs on the shelf copies!
It was interesting, contrasting the more measured response at Shejidan with the euphoria here.
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Date: 2008-11-06 05:19 am (UTC)That said -- there is a LOT of private jubilation going on via PM & emails: Star, Kokipy, Resa, Xheralt & I all were Obama supporters & have contacted each other behind the scenes. No need rubbing it into Spence, & possibly others, who have have a very different point of view yet. Spence was gracious enough to congratulate us who supported Obama, and I appreciate that.
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Date: 2008-11-09 04:14 am (UTC)I can appreciate their tact ... I also noticed some months ago that although I love discussing CJC with the Sheji Associates, their politics are often way off from mine. A lot of them are well toward Libertarian, which is a political stance I can't really get behind. That's part of why I like LJ in many ways more than message boards ... we're closer here. I don't like to burden Shejidan with all the mundane little crud of day-to-day, and I feel shy there, still, in many ways. But this is sort of my home, which I enjoy sharing with friends, so it's very different.
I like Spence. I wouldn't expect him to be anything but gracious.
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Date: 2008-11-05 09:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-05 05:50 pm (UTC)Hee! Yes, the Young Lady was the one who remembered about Guy Fawkes when we were talking about fireworks and world reaction!
I have to say, I'm deeply touched by the messages from around the world.
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Date: 2008-11-06 05:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-05 05:48 pm (UTC)It's like the New Year, isn't it?
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Date: 2008-11-05 05:52 pm (UTC)New Year, New Era ... pretty close! And of course, well-omened from the viewpoint of scaring away evil spirits.
I'm wondering whether it's appropriate to recite Shehekiyanu ... .
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Date: 2008-11-05 07:46 pm (UTC)This is how I know I am hardwired for story: when he said so let us summon a new spirit, I thought, well, that's you, then, isn't it? Daimon of change; we called you up and now we have to not blow it. (And not hate you because you are human and not Moshiach, either.) Then he finished the sentence of patriotism, of responsibility, but those are still the shrines my head builds around the words it hears.
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Date: 2008-11-05 11:16 pm (UTC)Oh, yes - when heard that way, it does indeed beg for more story ... .
I hope that people understand how slow the wheels of government can grind, and don't expect miracles early on! And yes, democratic government is a continuous communal effort - people can't just expect to have him show up and fix everything, while they go back to sitting on their hands.
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Date: 2008-11-12 01:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-13 12:38 pm (UTC)We had plate lunches in Hawaii! We were driving counter-clockwise around the edge of Oahu and stopped for lunch at a place some of the guys from the base had recommended to the Mr. It was pretty good but too much food for someone who wasn't doing hard manual labor! I think we all had the kalua pork.
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Date: 2008-11-13 04:28 pm (UTC)I think I mentioned my favorite saimin place when we were talking mom-and-pop restaurants? Here are a few pics of the overstuffed bowls...
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Date: 2008-11-17 02:51 am (UTC)There was the more-or-less American version of that sort of place at "The Corner" at UVa - the University Cafeteria, a/k/a UniCaf. I once treated myself to supper there and requested the meatballs with rice. I received a large dinner plate heaped at least two inches deep in seasoned ride, with two golfball-sized meatballs nestled in the top. Clearly they were used to feeding members of the football team.