Saiyuki Tarot, Anybody?
Apr. 9th, 2008 01:57 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
chomijiSo smillaraaq and I were talking a little about Saiyuki and the tarot, and it's kind of fun matching up characters and events to cards. I'm thinking in terms of the classic Rider-Waite deck, which has events for the pip cards in the four suits.
For our four boys, at the simplest level, I'd go with the Knights of the four suits. The definitions re personality traits for these tend to be open enough that you can find things that match each of the guys, and they also work pretty well with something that kispexi2 put forth, which is that you can match Sanzo/Hakkai/Gojyo/Goku up with Spirit/Mind/Heart/Body. That matches well with the four Western elements used in the tarot: Fire/Air/Water/Earth, which are represented by Wands/Swords/Cups/Pentacles.
I would use the Knights not only for the guys' phase in life - young men - but also because of the questing element. They're in the mode of seeking: the solution to the Minus Wave, the sutras - of course, but also their own true selves. That goes very well with the intention of the Knight (or Prince) cards in the tarot. So we have:
Knight of Wands - Sanzo: fire, spirit or will - daring, insensitive, unconcerned with the small stuff, will tackle what others avoid, lacks inner peace, angers easily, has a chip on his shoulder. In many ways, Sanzo is the Knight of Wands reversed. This is true to some extent with all of them.
Knight of Swords - Hakkai: air, intellect - not as good a match in the traditional definitions of the Knight. But the Swords court cards in general have lots of Hakkai-type aspects: sorrow, firm resolve, speaking directly (which Hakkai does do, especially to Sanzo: he's the one to lay out the actual conflicts or choices before them), analyzing problems, accepting responsibility, verbal wit. In the same way that pick this card as a Significator for a young man in this stage of life who struck me as serious and brainy, but troubled, I'd use this one for Hakkai.
Knight of Cups - Gojyo: water, emotions - This is a solid match in many ways, but it's also funny and seemingly wrong in others: our brash, potty-mouthed kappa matched up with the sensitive romantic. But he is a sensitive romantic, even though he hasn't a clue how best to act on it most of the time. One of the sources I used for this says "brings flowers, but forgets to put gas in the car." That's our Gojyo, alright. Lacks self-restraint, has big ideas that come to nothing, helps others open up, appreciates beauty in all forms, exaggerates personal failings, sees below the surface, takes offense easily.
Knight of Pentacles - Goku: earth, body - Another pretty good match, as long as you don't get distracted and assume that "diligent" only means "does well at completing boring tasks assigned by others." Goku is very diligent in his pursuit of his own physical excellence and his devotion to Sanzo. Dogged in pursuit of a goal, can become dedicated to a task, never leaves a job half done, is hardheaded and obstinate, stands firm against opposition. No, he's not prudent - but in general, he doesn't need to be.
This is not the only time these guys would appear in the deck, though. For example, Sanzo has also got to be The Sun (see below).
More Thoughts
I've thought of a few others in passing ....
The Tower - Kami-sama's castle, falling - upheaval, crisis, revelation, seeing through illusions.
The Devil - Why, I do believe it's Ukoku, and the people he has in bondage ought to be GK and Hazel. Being obsessed, believing only in the physical, overindulging the senses, choosing to stay in the dark, lacking faith, seeing a cold world.
The Sun - Sanzo apotheosized/arisen (Sanzo as what he could become, and what Goku sees in him) - understanding, enlightenment, freedom, joy.
The Moon - this poses an interesting issue. This should be Koumyou, of course. But in Western tarot, the Moon as a card is deception, illusions, self-deceit. I guess we need to change our Tarot.
The World - I like Goku for this as far as meaning goes, but it could be Kanzeon, especially because the Rider-Waite description specifies that the person depicted in the World is actually a hermaphrodite, with "the scarf hiding the truth." Wholeness, achieving goals, healing, sharing, taking pleasure in life, fulfillment.
The Two of Cups - Gojyo and Hakkai sitting at Gojyo's little kitchen table, talking, smiling, each with a cup before him, and cards on the table. The time is "Be There," when they're really getting to know each other. Cementing a friendship, helping and being helped, bringing together opposites, recognizing a bond that is developing, accepting your preferences.
The Six of Swords - Gojyo carrying Goku and Hakkai away after the battle in Reload 7. Picking up the pieces, functioning but not much more, heading toward a more positive place, being uprooted, feeling depressed.
So what do you think? Any other ideas for cards? Want to counter my choices? The resource I was using for card meanings (in addition to what I know already) is right here. (And I found that someone had done an anime Saiyuki version here, but I don't think much of most of their choices ... .) Let's talk!
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Date: 2008-04-09 06:39 pm (UTC)Hmmm. What are we using as a basis, the manga, the anime; Gaiden and/or Gensoumaden/Reload? Or all of it?
That Major Arcana link is just... wrong.
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Date: 2008-04-09 06:56 pm (UTC)I don't know the anime or the OVAs or any of that miscellany at all. I have read and re-read the manga (Gensoumaden and Reload) in English obsessively, and I have read a pretty bad scanslation of Gaiden. If someone has compelling reasons to use elements from them, I guess we could, but you'd have to explain it because I wouldn't understand it right off!
Yeah that other deck is whack - the idea of Lirin as the Empress, for example, is too bizarre (and in fact, I think we'll be hard-pressed to come up with a good Empress!). But Lirin might make a good Star. Her long/short pants even echo the Star girl's "one foot on land, one foot in the water" thing.
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Date: 2008-04-09 06:57 pm (UTC)OK, some thoughts:
The Empress: Ratsetsunyo
The Lovers: Hmmph. H&G, Who else? ;)
The Heirophant: Koumyou
Wheel of Fortune: The 4 Gaiden boys as a group
High Priestess: Kanzeon
The Hermit: Hakkai
The Fool: Dokugakuji
The Emperor: Kougaiji
The Chariot: Sanzo in his role as a priest
Strength: Goku
Justice: The Sanbutsushin
Hanged Man: Gojyo
Temperance: Yaone
The Star: Lirin
The Moon: Gyokoumen K
I need to think about hte other trumps.
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Date: 2008-04-09 06:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-09 06:58 pm (UTC)(Oh, and the only issue I have with Houtou as the Tower is that we hope it will be struck by the gods - but Kami-sama's has already, with our boys as their agents.)
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Date: 2008-04-09 07:08 pm (UTC)All the best people are geeks!
Hmm, my comments:
The Lovers: Hmmph. H&G, Who else? ;) LOL - yes, and Kanzeon up in Heaven smiling down ...
The Hermit: Hakkai - Hmmm ... not Koumyou? I like Hakkai using his chi as the Magician - not that he couldn't be both. He's talented, that boy ... .
The Fool: Dokugakuji - well, the Fool is the Soul setting out on its journey, so I thought maybe the 4 of them - Jeep even echoes the Fool's little white dog in the R-W deck!
The Heirophant: Koumyou - this is religion as orthodoxy, so maybe someone else would be better?
Strength: Goku - Possible, but to match the R-W "Strength," I'd take either Sanzo subduing the Seiten Tasei or Gojyo brining Hakkai to his senses during the fight in Reload 7
The Hanged Man: Gojyo - Hmm, I'd rather Doku here, or Gonou going before the Sanbutsushin ... the idea is surrendering yourself to your fate, which Gojyo doesn't, really.
Kanzeon is a great High Priestess, and I really like Yaone as Temperence. G-K is a good Moon, or maybe Zakuro ... .
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Date: 2008-04-09 07:25 pm (UTC)Yes!
The screwy deck has Goku, which isn't bad - but Lirin is better!
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Date: 2008-04-09 08:29 pm (UTC)The Heirophant: Rev. (or whatever he is) Filbert
Strength: How about Gato? (Although I like your choices also)
Death: How about Nataku?
The World: That's a tough one. If it represents unity, and wholeness of purpose, and strength as a group, how about them fighting as a team, say after Kami-sama, or when they were fighting Kougaiji when he was barcoded? Or, I know, them playing backgammon in Kami-sama!
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Date: 2008-04-09 09:07 pm (UTC)Absolutely! THat is so perfect for Gojyo. I see that more and more as I continue to rewatch and re-read.
And The Moon - this poses an interesting issue. This should be Koumyou, of course. But in Western tarot, the Moon as a card is deception, illusions, self-deceit. I guess we need to change our Tarot.
Oh, I dunno. I start to see Komyou more and more as a very sneaky type. It might be more apt than we think. ;)
Very cool, overall! Thanks for sharing!
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Date: 2008-04-09 09:51 pm (UTC)Oh, I'm not wedded to any of them either! But it's fun to speculate & compare ideas and all that ... .
Oh, I like poor Nataku for Death! Good idea! And Konzen, Kenren, and Tenpou would be walking toward him/falling beneath him, in place of the bishop, lady, and child in the R-W Death.
Hee! Yeah on the game, only it was Mahjong, yes? One of them in each corner - and I won't be happy until I figure out which one replaces which animal, because they all have very specific meanings ... which I will have to look up!
Yes, Filbert's a good Hierophant, poor man.
Hmmm ... Gat is strong, but he's also essentially bound against his will at the moment. And the card Strength means something more significant than physical might: it's true, spiritual strength. That's why the R-W card shows a woman closing a lion's mouth.
Check out the Eight of Swords for at least one place where I think I see poor Gat.
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Date: 2008-04-09 10:06 pm (UTC)If Gato is the Eight of Swords, how about Hazel for The Magician?
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Date: 2008-04-09 10:17 pm (UTC)Kanzeon--The World.
Komyou--the High Priestess.
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Date: 2008-04-09 10:39 pm (UTC)I haven't looked at it in a long time, so I'm not sure if it was put together with actual thought to the meanings of the cards, or if they just threw any old art on. If I remember, once I get home I'll look at it for comparative purposes.
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Date: 2008-04-10 02:21 am (UTC)Hmm, I like Nataku for that one too. And we're in agreement about The World, although I was discussing another possibiity with Avierra.
High Priestess = Koumyou! Hah - yes, there's the moon in that! What an interesting thought ... .
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Date: 2008-04-10 07:41 am (UTC)Of course, Houtou castle is the source of the minus wave and the resulting 'upheaval and crisis'.
Whee! This is fun! I know very, very little about Tarot but I do think it's a great way of opening up new avenues of thinking.
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Date: 2008-04-10 07:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-10 07:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-10 07:45 am (UTC)Squee! And now I really WANT one. Any idea where you got it?
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Date: 2008-04-10 07:53 am (UTC)The Sun - Sanzo apotheosized/arisen (Sanzo as what he could become, and what Goku sees in him) - understanding, enlightenment, freedom, joy.
Seeing himself through Goku's eyes is the beginning of healing for Sanzo, I think.
Re Koumyou as the Moon - I think that could work. Koumyou doesn't so much cause deception and illusion but highlights them. Those who are deceived by him aren't looking at things properly but through the distorting lens of their own desires.
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Date: 2008-04-10 11:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-10 11:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-10 11:16 am (UTC)I go through phases of Tarot geekdom, where I either just dig out one of my existing decks and books or go get a new deck or book, and then do lots of readings for a while, sometimes writing them down and then putting them away, so I can check them later and see if anything pans out. :-)
I just like the cards and the ideas of the symbolism. The Rider-Waite deck, which I prefer and am using here, is a relatively new deck that was laid out by a guy who'd studied a lot of European and Near East mysticism at the turn of the 20th century. It uses a lot of old symbols, but the presentation is modern-ish. Still, the images speak to me much more so than the older classical decks (like the Marseilles deck), which has puppet-like wood block figures for the 22 Major Arcana and playing-card-type layouts and figures for the 56 Minor Arcana.
Other decks that I have and sometimes use are the Haindl Tarot (which has a rather self-conscious "World Cultures" symbology, but I love the artwork) and the Palladini Tarot (a/k/a the Aquarian Tarot), which stylistically and chronologically dates to my teen years and feels noastalgic to me. Both are based on the Rider-Waite.
The thing to remember about tarot is that it can be used as a meditation tool on a number of levels. One of the ideas is that the Major Arcana represent the journey of the soul, through trials and tests and learning, starting out the journey as the naive, unknowing Fool (card 0) until ending up as the fulfilled, complete World (card 21).
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Date: 2008-04-10 11:23 am (UTC)XD
The Empress is the feminine principal as power figure, complete with lots of fertility symbolism. The R-W deck uses symbols with her like the rabbit and sheaves of wheat (which also show up in the Pantacles cards in the Minor Arcana, which is the Earth suit). Minekura's Kanzeon is of completely ambiguous sexuality and not fertile except in ideas and causing trouble ... so, no Empress for Kanzeon!
Suggestions that other people have made for him/her include the High Priestess (which indicates female magical power, power in potentia, and magical knowledge) and the World (because the R-W deck allows for the interpretation that the central figure is a hermaphrodite, and also because her role as Goddess of Mercy works well with the completion/wholeness aspects of the card).
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Date: 2008-04-10 11:32 am (UTC)Well, I'd prefer the 585 Lovers because they are each other's salvation, as we've discussed, and that's behind the R-W sybolism for the lovers. You notice they're not looking at each other. The gazes form a triangle: he looks at her, she looks at the Angel, and the Angel looks at him. I'd have Hakkai, who's much more conscious of the spiritual aspects of all of this, looking up to Kanzeon, who looks at Gojyo (whom she's already used as her agent), who looks at Hakkai.
I don't know the story with Homura. Tell?
vom_marlowe was suggesting Nataku for the Hanged Man. I also think he'd be really good as Death, which is avierra's idea.
Yes, I mentioned Sanzo subduing the Seiten Tasei as Strength (and also Gojyo restraining Hakkai during vol. 7!).
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Date: 2008-04-10 11:35 am (UTC)That's possible - the Magician has that table full of mystical gee-gaws! Hazel could have his talisman and a Bible and things.
Hazel can show up in other cards too. The R-W deck has lots of very rich symbolism in the Minor Arcana.
(Maybe the Minekura Backgammon artbook is what came floating up in your mind?)